It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:01 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Forum rules


For discussion of equipment safety, with the purpose of constructively defining safety improvements - not for the discussion of event on-track driving rules or VKA Guidlelines - general forum rules also apply which are published on this website.



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
  Print view Previous topic | First unread post | Next topic 
Author Message
 Post subject: Kart Safety - initial posting for this new forum catagory
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:21 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 928
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
I had a thought about setting up a new forum category exclusively for sharing information and ideas on Vintage Karting Equipment Safety. The rationale is based on the observation that most of the accidents occurring with vintage karts, are due to equipment failure, mainly associated with the braking and steering systems.

Also, just to be clear, I don't want to start any discussions about driving rules, tire rules, any rules, racing or such (that is not within the intended use of this forum). Let's only focus on sharing thoughts and ideas on equipment preparation to improve safety.

Some thoughts to start the conversation could be to address several observed equipment failures and discuss how to prevent them without detracting from our enjoyment of vintage karting, such failures as:

> the brake line popped out of the caliper during braking
> a brake pad fell out of the caliper
> a steering column weld failed
> the brake pads wore out much quicker than expected
> the brake pedal clevis pin fell out...

What failures have you seen? ... what failures have you not seen, but think could happen??? How could an accident be prevented?

I don't see why vintage karting can't be the safest form of karting, as a community, we can make that happen.

Jeff


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:21 pm
Posts: 760
brake tethers? cb


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 335
Location: Half Moon Bay, CA
Jeff
Better pre-tech and tech personal that will recommend repair procedures and hold the kart from entering the track until repairs are made.
I have seen a left rear wheel come off of a kart, reason: karter put a modern calipier on and could not put the left rear wheel on so he made a spacer so the wheel would clear the calipier, sooo, no cotter key or safety wire on the axle nut.
Also you and I both seen the steering hoop incident on Terry Walters kart at New Castle.
I know this is suppose to be a fun sport but I see a lot of problems in pre-tech, and then we do not know after pre-tech what the karter has done. There will always be problems but lets try and minimize them.

Louie

_________________
VKA 061


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 397
Location: new haven ct
Good idea Jeff,

as in everything when you depend on a single system you better be sure it's perfect.
i know that people want to get out there but skimping on brakes or cheating when you build is extremely stupid.

in my Harley experience i saw that over and over.
i'd say tech before is a good start.
but knowledge is the best safety tool.

so from me i'd suggest:
never re use a cotter pin, they're cheap and you life isn't.
wire or pin everything even if the tech misses it.
this is not a game of fool the tech.
inspect the brakes and steering before each run.
parts get gremlined all the time a full visual inspection will find lost nuts bolts cotter pins ect.
my 2 cents
dave 8)

_________________
ddotto VKA # 277


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:21 pm
Posts: 760
I suggest better driver protection gear: motorcycle type jackets, pants and shoes with padded protection in the hips, elbows, knees; shoes with ankle protection. (The gear I use is mesh with a zip in liner for lots of air flow through cooling) Snell rated full coverage hemetswith up-to-date rating..Helmets should be disposed of if they take a hard hit. All gear should give impact and abraision protection. This is particularly true on higher speed enduro tracks. c


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:37 pm
Posts: 145
Location: So Cal
Great topic!......pit fires... on alcohol..(yea not how to drink it) while at Bakersfield while trying to unfoul a flooded engine while spinning the thing over with out the spark plug we had a flash fire!.......It caught my buddies pants on fire having to put him out with the handy fire extingisher with the dry powder was not good him...... from now on a 5 gal bucket of water needs to be close by and should be in the pits and on the grid....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:48 pm
Posts: 187
I saw a nitwit on a 125 shifter kart get to the end of the straight and the clevis pin had fallen out of his brake pedal. The guy blasted thru some hay bales backwards which launched him over a chain link fence into the pits and onto his head. Of course that could never happen with a monster kart...... Another usually hairy one is when the key falls out of the brake disc hub. I know of a brand new Rupp racing kart on it's maiden run down an industrial alley that collected a dumpster head on, no key in the disc from the factory or else it had fallen out before the brakes were needed. Don't ever get the idea that vintage karts are actually safe. They're just as dangerous as when they were new, probably even more so with parts more prone to fail from long usage.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:14 pm
Posts: 130
Good information showing up here, thanks guys!

Earlier this year there was a post regarding broken Rupp steering shafts at the welds. There was a reply post stating that chrome plating could cause hydrogen embrittlement of the weld. Because of this I decided not to get the steering shaft on my 63 GP re-chromed. I ended up painting it instead. I would rather be safe than pretty. The factory welds look good.

Also there was the post on aluminum brake rods...definitely a no-no!!

What an excellent topic Jeff.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 397
Location: new haven ct
Hi all,
with all the talk about clevis pins i got to thinking.
why do we permit a pin when all thats between disaster or death is a thin wire?
wouldn't it be better to replace the pin with a bolt and cotter pin/wire thru it?
at least then when the cotter falls out you have a nut still holding it together.
if there's a good reason not to use a bolt and wire please let me know.
as far as the axle key goes good point Russ.
though a personal tech check should reveal a missing key before you hit a dumpster. :roll:
but they do fall out at speed too.
on that a thin hole thru the key secured with a wire around the axle might help keep them in place.
again any good reason not to?
thanx dave

_________________
ddotto VKA # 277


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:48 pm
Posts: 187
Most sharp karters use a piece of key stock that's the full length of the keyway slot to prevent it from being able to dislodge itself. I think a shoulder bolt with a castle nut and cotter pin or aircraft flexloc-nut is 100 times better that a clevis pin. So does the aircraft industry.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:20 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 928
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Slow Greg wrote:
Great topic!......pit fires... on alcohol..(yea not how to drink it) while at Bakersfield while trying to unfoul a flooded engine while spinning the thing over with out the spark plug we had a flash fire!.......It caught my buddies pants on fire having to put him out with the handy fire extingisher with the dry powder was not good him...... from now on a 5 gal bucket of water needs to be close by and should be in the pits and on the grid....


Greg - people need to know that even with the spark plug taken out and removed (from the head and from the plug wire), those magnetos can throw a spark far enough to arc out of the spark plug wire boot! Think about that the next time you blow out an engine. A kill switch might be a good thing to have.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:23 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 928
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Dr Charles Bering wrote:
brake tethers? cb


That is a good idea, I've heard it before, anyone have any good designs or ideas for a brake tether that is suited to vintage karts? (i.e. not offensively non-vintage looking)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 397
Location: new haven ct
Chip and Jeff,

i agree with you that we should make the karts as safe as possible.
but,before we start adding non vintage parts to karts why don't we look over the lost brakes issue from a causative view.
ie;: research before reaction.
a brake failure can come from broken petals too.
in that case a tether would be of no help.

if we find out that the brakes failed because of clevis pin lose , the bolt and pin should solve the problem without becoming a modern part update that would alter the vintage look of the kart.
i've seen bolts in kart braking before.

remember, we aren't or claim not to be racing and adding a system like this to the karts is clearly non vintage.
a tether is basically an aircraft cable installed over or under the brake rod as a secondary braking system control in case of brake rod ,clevis , clevis pin failure or clevis pin loss.
maybe a removable one for when the kart is on the track would be an option though.


if you're refering to monster "VINTAGE" karts the brake tether would be a great idea. also a driver separated from kart engine kill system would be appropriate. these karts are stupidly fast and usually have a few non vintage parts anyway so adding a few more shouldn't matter.

but with a period correct vintage kart i can't see any design that would work because they didn't exist as far as i know.
of course if there's information to the effect that they were on karts in the day i welcome the opportunity to learn about them.

finally since we're not racing a thorough pre-exhibition tech inspection, a good personal tech inspection and a few minor changes to the brake system (bolts instead of a clevis, wired axle keys,and no aluminum in brake rod system parts) should be more than enough to remove that brake failure aspect from the karts.

just my 2 cents
dave

_________________
ddotto VKA # 277


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kart Safety - a new forum catagory???
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:49 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 928
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Dave,
My thought on the tether wasn't so much for backing up a pedal failure, but for something going wrong at the master cylinder end of things. On karts with more than one master cylinder, many failures could occur that take out one master cylinder. In this case, most linkage designs will render the entire brake system useless, the tether could allow the pedal to at least actuate one good master cylinder. The good thing about the brakes, is that redundancy can be put in place, for added safety. Dual MCs and Dual calipers are not out of line for being vintage.
Also, I have to disagree with your statement that implies that brake equipment prep can differ for racing vs non-racing, and still be just as safe. A brake failure is a brake failure, doesn't matter if you are racing or not, a failure at high speed is going to result in a major accident. I've seen people hurt in practice and during heats from equipment failure, probably more so during practice.

Jeff


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron




Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Style supported by CodeMiles Team.