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 Post subject: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:20 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Illinois
VKA board members: post on Vintage Karts Forum you need to read.time to correct all the mistakes made in the Yamaha class.Maybe input from all VKA members is needed.

If anyone is looking for that post it is no longer there. Deleted I guess.


Last edited by Tom Day on Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:01 am
Posts: 433
Location: Northern Ohio
Tom...point out your concern,,,will address them...

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Gary
VKA #387


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:40 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:20 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Illinois
Gary,
I can't and won't speak for everyone but it looks like many are unhappy that this has turned into a high roller open class with tons of money being spent on engines that won't last long. Looks like something needs to be done to negate these expensive engines performance so the new or average vintage karter isn't afraid to get into it. Yamahas and West Bends may be the future of vintage karting.Back in the day(70's) we used to run the crap out of these engines with very little maintenance and they ran great and were very reliable. I don't think that is the case now. With this class becoming much larger than many of the others maybe now it's time to make some changes to keep it alive and more user friendly. Just my 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:14 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:20 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Illinois
Gary,
Please read the PM I sent you.


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:28 pm
Posts: 273
Tom,
I wonder if your comments are connected to some of my posts on another vintage kart site?
I am not a tech inspector or a regular entrant in the Yamaha class so I have no idea what people are actually doing with the engines. My comments on the history of "Stock Appearing" classes should not be interpreted as a statement that people are building and racing high dollar modified engines in the KT100 class, only that they could be.
My posts are only intended to alert members as to what can happen when the rules are ambiguous.
If the intent is that the KT100 class be run with the engines in the same configuration as they have been since the 70s then the term "Stock Appearing" must be clearly defined to mean stock on the inside as well as the outside.
If some folks have already built "open" KT100s they do not have to junk the engines, they just switch classes and run them in the 100cc foreign sidewinder group.
If my comments have created headaches for the VKA board I regret that but better to sort it out now than later after things have gotten way out of hand.
Steve O'Hara


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:26 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:01 am
Posts: 433
Location: Northern Ohio
Steve...

I think what they are referring to is (Corporate) sponsorship...the majority of these guys buy a motor 300-500 bux and run it ..more to have fun,,then you get one or two that get motors given to them by engine builders to showcase the engines,,,these are not CHEAP motors....upwards of $2000-$2500 packages..actually more ..considering they break a motor and the next morning a brand new one is there....

I think its great for modern day racers ,,but has no place in the VKA,, IMO...and I'm not picking on any one,,just my own personal view....

yeah, and then there's the guy that needs to build big engines, or restamp carbs,,, most of these BIG engines don't work, but a few do,,,,again , no place for that in the VKA...

so now they want, light and heavy Yammie class, stock and modified Yammie class, and Racer and Non Racer Yammie class....Sponsored and Non Sponsored Yammie class....

This ""Have to Win Attitude"" just doesn't fit the VKA...or any Vintage group, karts ,cars, bikes...

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Gary
VKA #387


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:18 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:20 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Illinois
Steve and Gary,
I agree with both of you. I think it is time to stop the carnage in this class and get it back to the way it was intended for vintage, a good reliable engine with a limit on the RPM they can turn. And Steve has a very good idea, they can run the open motors in the 100cc foreign. We need more entries there anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:21 pm
Posts: 30
Guys - this topic of highly modified engines in the Yamaha class has been brought up more and more as the class continues to grow....Considering that this class has consistently pulled the majority of entry's at the events I have attended this year and I expect it to increase, lets discuss about how to make it better for 2017... Like in every class, we have very experienced and great drivers along with weekend warriors like myself...High performance, slightly modified, and stock engine/clutch set ups.... When mixed together we end up with two very different races in the same heat, sometimes causing some potential safety issues when slower karts are getting lapped by the much faster ones... I am not a fan of light/heavy classes but that is strictly up to the promoter and does serve a purpose with enough entries in each class, but does not address the real issue members are complaining about... The VKA tries to set up guidelines to keep the sport alive and bring new interest into our hobby, those with highly modified engines and over sized/modified carbs are outside of what the guidelines intended but nothing really to prevent doing so... Promoters have the authority to say what can/can not run at their event and how to police/tech questionable set ups according to the promoters rules... And since we have a large number of each type of set up (Stock/Modified) in the Yamaha class, I have been asked by our VKA members at the tracks to propose the following at our next board meeting (this is only a proposal!!!!): Yamaha class to direct a stock size carb and can muffler that will be required to pass a go/no go carburetor gage and either move the modified set ups with pipe/over sized carb to an open class or the current foreign class.... But my opinion is that this needs to come from the voices of the Yamaha drivers ( I will be asking for a brief Yamaha drivers only meeting at Camden for more input and will be helping with tech so lots of opportunity to speak with the drivers ). Constructive input is most effective in order to help correct issues that come up and this is getting addressed.... We want everyone to come out and enjoy themselves, keep in mind - this is a hobby!

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Scott Klingler
VKA # 292
Kart# 421


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:28 pm
Posts: 273
Scott,

Please don't encourage the can muffler thing. They were not used in the vintage karting era and they ruin the look, sound and performance of the KT100 powered karts.
There are at least a dozen different pipes that work very well on the KT100 and they are readily available and cheaper than the price of the funky can mufflers.
This is really an easy problem to fix. VKA should simply state that the KT100 class shall require the engines to comply with the long established IKF/WKA specs with two variations. One is that there will be no minimum combustion chamber volume and the other will be that the carb must appear stock and the venturi must not exceed the IKF/WKA spec, other wise there will be no tech of the insides. I propose these two variances not for performance gains but to allow the racers to run the engines in a configuration that lasts longer and is easier to tune.
A side benefit is that it eliminates the two most time consuming aspects of post race tech inspection.
If some guys are interested in the technical challenge of building modified KT100s there is a class already well suited to their interest and they can enjoy the challenge of making a KT100 competitive with the European rotary valve motors. In that class only the displacement should be subject to tech, the rest should be wide open.

Personally, I am not a fan of making vintage kart racing that competitive but the number of entrants in the KT100 class has been growing steadily and it is clear that there is a good size group that want that kind of racing. I see no reason to prevent them from doing what they enjoy. We have plenty of other classes in vintage karting that provide a place to drive vintage karts at a more casual pace and without the fuss.
If the KT100 guys want to get fussy and agree to set a minimum weight and do the weigh in thing why not let them?
It doesn't mean the rest of the classes have to follow suit.
I race two types of open wheel cars in VARA and SVRA events and we have a similar situation. Our Formula Ford group has agreed to have a minimum weight and run a spec tire. We self manage so the event organizers do not have to be involved. When I race my Toyota Atlantic car no one cares how much I weigh or what tires we run... the class is made up of everything from F1 cars to old air cooled Super Vees and it really comes down to an anything goes approach.
I see no reason VKA can't accommodate the racers in a similar manner as long as the decisions don't impair the club's ability to obtain the required insurance to run the events.
Steve O'Hara


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:00 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:21 pm
Posts: 30
Steve - the proposal that I wrote about is not something I came up with , this came from drivers in the class that were not comfortable running with the set ups out there and wanted a more tame Yamaha class. I don't run in he class nor will I ever run in the class so it's not something I have a vested interest in other than trying to accommodate members requests of getting info in front of the board. If changes are proposed, people get upset and threaten to leave the class, if nothing is addressed when an issue comes up, people threaten to leave the class... Trust me - this is a thankless position trying to make everyone happy as we try to grow our hobby. As I mentioned previously, input needs to come from the drivers in the Yamaha class and then we can gather, sort, and try to make sense of how to promote the class.... Hurting the performance with a can muffler (kinda the point people wanted) will slow em down a little but may better separate the class (open/stock) so we don't have 25 karts on the track at once as well, another safety issue all together. You or anyone reading this can feel free to call me at 248-533-7544 and openly give me your feedback if you are driving in the Yamaha class as these posts tend to get out of hand and misinterpreted. The more input the better or we can just leave it as is and let the promoters handle what can be run at the events. But plz only call if you participate in the class. Hope to see you all soon at a Midwest event coming up. I will not be following up with further comments on this post, so plz feel free to call.

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Scott Klingler
VKA # 292
Kart# 421


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:35 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:20 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Illinois
Scott, I for one would like to thank you for helping to address the problems with this class to help the newbies, slower/ heavy and people that want to join this class.I think safety IS an issue. As for the can ,there are plenty of things being used that are not vintage.
You may want to get the opinions of all The Yamaha participants,not just the ones at Camden.


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:24 pm 
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Posts: 4
With all of the acquisitions being thrown around about the Yamaha class, I wanted to set the record straight in regards to my Yamaha set up that was the class winner in Springfield and the light class winner in Brodhead with Josh Fischer as the driver. I am aware that this months issue of the first turn magazine indicates that Kayla Burns won the class in Springfield. Kayla ran a great third Heath and won that heat, but we were the overall winner after winning the first heat, placing 4th in the second heat after being forced off of the track and falling to the rear and running a very close 2nd to Kayla in the third heat. The engine that is being run is a stock Yamaha 787 engine that I raced back in the day at many IKF events that was blue printed to IKF specs. We took it out of "mothballs" and rebuilt it to the same specs in January 2015. We have run it ever since. It is a IKF legal motor and carburetor set up with a Horstman 2 disc clutch. If anyone would like to tech it they are more than welcome. We are running the engine on BP Ultimate pump gas and castor oil. I agree that it would be nice to know that we are running the same motor setup (stock vs modified) as our competition, but I don't think that we want to go to a modified motor as the only way to be competitive. If we can make the motor more reliable by decreasing the cc's, then so be it. I hope that my comments are not taken as being boastful. I just wanted to go on record that we are competing with a stock engine. I am concerned about allowing internal modifications as this will only increase the expense.

I have also been a proponent of a box muffler class for the Yamahas. My goal would be to have a "tamer" Yamaha class for us older folks. I personally am not real comfortable anymore with 15 - 25 or more karts racing at that speed. I also don't want to be the only one out there running a box muffler as was suggested to me. I would just be in the way. I enjoy tuning the current set up as well so I am not suggesting that we eliminate the current class as I am aware that others enjoy that as well. I just feel that for the future of our sport, again a "tamer" class would be an asset as the McCulloch stuff keeps getting more and more expensive!

Anyway, just my thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:33 pm
Posts: 78
Location: chattanooga, TN
In the very beginning of the VKA venture into the Yamaha arena, I urged the VKA board to go with a spec exhaust pipe to limit the output of the engine and to greatly reduce the dependence on the slipper oil clutches -- I even went so far as to set up an arrangement with RLV for the VKA members to buy this pipe direct at a very low cost.
Now a year or so later, here we are talking about highly tuned / hi output, short lived engines.
I can only say this time I kinda enjoy getting to say I told you so ! LOL
The pipe I proposed was basically the KPV type pipe which does not have a convergent cone---It is in fact a "CAN" type pipe but unlike the true "coffee"can type that bolt directly to the cylinder and cause unacceptable heat and wear, this system reduces the peak power level and does not produce any ill effects due to the huge amount of heat that is transmitted back into the cylinder. This pipe signs off at about 13000 and pulls hard enough on the bottom that a dry clutch or even direct drive could be used with success.
I really hope for 2017 that this system could be considered.
I also support a bore and stroke tech as well as a .950" max venturi check.
Including the pipe (length), the full tech inspection should take 5 minutes max.
This pipe + header can be had new for less than 150.oo -- many can be found in the used market for much less as the classes that used this style pipe (yamaha + KPV) have fallen by the wayside.


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 Post subject: Re: Yamaha Class
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:39 pm
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My own thoughts on the subject as a Yamaha driver are that currently at some events where there have ben enough entries to warrant it the yamaha class has ben being split up by weight but personally I think it would be far more beneficial to simply do a stock/blue printed yamaha class and a open yamaha class as it really wouldnt alienate anyone and would please far more. The racers that have the desire and rescources to run highly bored out single race engines have a class to do it in and then the average racer with a box stock motor has a class as well to be competitive in. Which would also have the added benefit of being far more safe for everyone involved because when you essentially have 2 forms of engines with that much of a hp difference mixed all together there is a high potential for problems and this would eliminate a good portion of that. Then as far as a spec pipe goes I would say make the open class a anything goes type of setup and if you so choose maybe make a spec pipe for the stock class my only concerns with that is I also race the sportsman class in the local club races around here and a few years ago when they tried to introduce a wka spec pipe there was alot of hub bub and uproar about it and I saw race entry numbers drop so even though I personally think its a great idea alot of others may not feel the same way and could possibly end up hurting entries as opposed to helping but that is something that would probably be best decided by a simple drivers pole among the class


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